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	<title>Comments on: English Wikipedia Ready for Flagged Revisions?</title>
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	<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions</link>
	<description>USC professor and author of The Wikipedia Revolution</description>
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		<title>By: Wikipedia Reviewer</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/comment-page-1/#comment-304727</link>
		<dc:creator>Wikipedia Reviewer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/#comment-304727</guid>
		<description>@Will
&quot;imposing draconian editing restrictions (i.e. real names only) as a way of solving the problem.&quot;

Wikipedia has fostered and promoted a clearly unethical practice of allowing anonymous unaccountable people to manage the most prominent information available on named victims. This is unethical by any standards in any society. A WP biography will be read by everyone with even a passing interest in the person. The people who read this information are told that Wikipedia is an &quot;encyclopedia.&quot;

People are either promoting the continuation of this unseemly, damaging practice, or they are campaigning against it. Take your pick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Will<br />
&#8220;imposing draconian editing restrictions (i.e. real names only) as a way of solving the problem.&#8221;</p>
<p>Wikipedia has fostered and promoted a clearly unethical practice of allowing anonymous unaccountable people to manage the most prominent information available on named victims. This is unethical by any standards in any society. A WP biography will be read by everyone with even a passing interest in the person. The people who read this information are told that Wikipedia is an &#8220;encyclopedia.&#8221;</p>
<p>People are either promoting the continuation of this unseemly, damaging practice, or they are campaigning against it. Take your pick.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/comment-page-1/#comment-304571</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 03:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/#comment-304571</guid>
		<description>I was going to post this on-wiki but this is a better place to rant...

A trial is fine. Finding a way of protecting BLPs from plausible and persistent vandalism is a good idea. But I&#039;m irked at the growing BLP absolutism at Wikipedia. People are seriously considering getting rid of BLPs, or imposing draconian editing restrictions (i.e. real names only) as a way of solving the problem. There are people out there on Wikipedia Review suggesting that the world would be better off if Wikipedia was destroyed, because that would get rid of BLPs. (I miss the days when the critics&#039; sites were more concerned with &#039;&#039;opposing&#039;&#039; censorship). I&#039;m especially irked at the idea that those who are lax on BLPs have no ethical compass. The New York Times or CNN surely have led to a lot more hurt feelings than Wikipedia. Google also has a huge potential to &quot;do harm&quot; to living people. Do these organization engage in such ethical handwringing about their very existence? Much less blogs or gossip columns or tabloids (if you think that MMORPG-playing nerds with no social skills violate BLP). Not that those should be the model for wikipedia.

Wikipedia&#039;s strength is its openness, not its 100% accuracy. The only way to deal with the problem, ultimately, is to say &quot;no big deal, it&#039;s just Wikipedia&quot; and &quot;nobody should trust Wikipedia completely&quot;. There&#039;s no way to make Wikipedia absolutely perfect without destroying it. Do we want the Wikipedia that makes the internet not suck, by giving the world access to information on every conceivable topic (including much information that was nonexistent, or in even more unreliable form, or very difficult to find on the Internet)? Or do we want a perfect Wikipedia that garners no bad press, and is absolutely immune from lawsuits, and doesn&#039;t hurt anybody&#039;s feelings, but only has a fraction of the content?

The image of Wikipedia you get from reading Wikipedia Review, or the press, or OTRS complaints only represents a small fraction of Wikipedia&#039;s true impact in the real world. Most of that&#039;s just drama. But more and more, its all that Wikipedia insiders care about, even the ArbCom and Jimmy Wales.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to post this on-wiki but this is a better place to rant&#8230;</p>
<p>A trial is fine. Finding a way of protecting BLPs from plausible and persistent vandalism is a good idea. But I&#8217;m irked at the growing BLP absolutism at Wikipedia. People are seriously considering getting rid of BLPs, or imposing draconian editing restrictions (i.e. real names only) as a way of solving the problem. There are people out there on Wikipedia Review suggesting that the world would be better off if Wikipedia was destroyed, because that would get rid of BLPs. (I miss the days when the critics&#8217; sites were more concerned with &#8221;opposing&#8221; censorship). I&#8217;m especially irked at the idea that those who are lax on BLPs have no ethical compass. The New York Times or CNN surely have led to a lot more hurt feelings than Wikipedia. Google also has a huge potential to &#8220;do harm&#8221; to living people. Do these organization engage in such ethical handwringing about their very existence? Much less blogs or gossip columns or tabloids (if you think that MMORPG-playing nerds with no social skills violate BLP). Not that those should be the model for wikipedia.</p>
<p>Wikipedia&#8217;s strength is its openness, not its 100% accuracy. The only way to deal with the problem, ultimately, is to say &#8220;no big deal, it&#8217;s just Wikipedia&#8221; and &#8220;nobody should trust Wikipedia completely&#8221;. There&#8217;s no way to make Wikipedia absolutely perfect without destroying it. Do we want the Wikipedia that makes the internet not suck, by giving the world access to information on every conceivable topic (including much information that was nonexistent, or in even more unreliable form, or very difficult to find on the Internet)? Or do we want a perfect Wikipedia that garners no bad press, and is absolutely immune from lawsuits, and doesn&#8217;t hurt anybody&#8217;s feelings, but only has a fraction of the content?</p>
<p>The image of Wikipedia you get from reading Wikipedia Review, or the press, or OTRS complaints only represents a small fraction of Wikipedia&#8217;s true impact in the real world. Most of that&#8217;s just drama. But more and more, its all that Wikipedia insiders care about, even the ArbCom and Jimmy Wales.</p>
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		<title>By: Wikipedia Reviewer</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/comment-page-1/#comment-304261</link>
		<dc:creator>Wikipedia Reviewer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/#comment-304261</guid>
		<description>Flagged Revisions for Biographies of Living People have been heavily pushed, alongside Semi-Protection of BLPs, by Wikipedia Review for a long, long time. The poll was the culmination of a long campaign and some of the key protagonists were long time Reviewers. 

At the root of this campaign is to end Wikipedia&#039;s unethical practice of compiling information on living people to sit at the top of google searches, which allows anyone with a grudge to anonymously defame the victim within seconds. Flagged Revisions is step towards ending that insidious and disgraceful feature of Wikipedia.  

This practice happens repeatedly, as evidenced by numerous studies. Damaging edits from drive-by &quot;vandals&quot; have been proven to stick for days, weeks and months. Long enough to be carried to many mirror and scraper sites.

This is the real issue. Forget about all that &quot;consensus&quot; garbage and the &quot;feelings of your community&quot;.Free editing on BLPs should never have been allowed in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flagged Revisions for Biographies of Living People have been heavily pushed, alongside Semi-Protection of BLPs, by Wikipedia Review for a long, long time. The poll was the culmination of a long campaign and some of the key protagonists were long time Reviewers. </p>
<p>At the root of this campaign is to end Wikipedia&#8217;s unethical practice of compiling information on living people to sit at the top of google searches, which allows anyone with a grudge to anonymously defame the victim within seconds. Flagged Revisions is step towards ending that insidious and disgraceful feature of Wikipedia.  </p>
<p>This practice happens repeatedly, as evidenced by numerous studies. Damaging edits from drive-by &#8220;vandals&#8221; have been proven to stick for days, weeks and months. Long enough to be carried to many mirror and scraper sites.</p>
<p>This is the real issue. Forget about all that &#8220;consensus&#8221; garbage and the &#8220;feelings of your community&#8221;.Free editing on BLPs should never have been allowed in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/comment-page-1/#comment-304254</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/#comment-304254</guid>
		<description>Steven, you know I had not made that connection, but I did find it curious that they started a wiki-like project like Whorunsgov.com. Rather than some type of conspiracy, I do think it was likely in the front of the journalist&#039;s mind that his own company was in the midst of launching a more mainstream site for exactly these type of profiles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven, you know I had not made that connection, but I did find it curious that they started a wiki-like project like Whorunsgov.com. Rather than some type of conspiracy, I do think it was likely in the front of the journalist&#8217;s mind that his own company was in the midst of launching a more mainstream site for exactly these type of profiles.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/comment-page-1/#comment-304250</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/#comment-304250</guid>
		<description>Sage, yes I will admit that I do need to change my &quot;habits&quot; on where to keep on top of news in the community. WikiEN-L and Foundation-L just doesn&#039;t cut it these days, and I abandoned the Community Portal years ago after it split into a half-dozen specific groups, which kind of took the idea of the &quot;Village pump&quot; and broke it down into &quot;Metropolitan area borough-specific water spigot.&quot; :) Of course there was no way for it to scale.

Something we talked about on podcast before about &quot;forums&quot; is that if there was some easy way to just search the discussions and talk pages, that might help a lot.

There is now, however, the [[Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion]] page which did indeed list the straw poll, and we should use more and more. It is probably the closest thing to a fair notice, &quot;Hear ye, hear ye&quot; board we have.

It seems there is also a new movement for &quot;flagged protection&quot; which seems like a workable King Solomon approach to implementing a version of flagged revisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sage, yes I will admit that I do need to change my &#8220;habits&#8221; on where to keep on top of news in the community. WikiEN-L and Foundation-L just doesn&#8217;t cut it these days, and I abandoned the Community Portal years ago after it split into a half-dozen specific groups, which kind of took the idea of the &#8220;Village pump&#8221; and broke it down into &#8220;Metropolitan area borough-specific water spigot.&#8221; <img src='http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Of course there was no way for it to scale.</p>
<p>Something we talked about on podcast before about &#8220;forums&#8221; is that if there was some easy way to just search the discussions and talk pages, that might help a lot.</p>
<p>There is now, however, the [[Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion]] page which did indeed list the straw poll, and we should use more and more. It is probably the closest thing to a fair notice, &#8220;Hear ye, hear ye&#8221; board we have.</p>
<p>It seems there is also a new movement for &#8220;flagged protection&#8221; which seems like a workable King Solomon approach to implementing a version of flagged revisions.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gerard</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/comment-page-1/#comment-304217</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gerard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/#comment-304217</guid>
		<description>Yeah. I somehow managed to only find out about the poll two days before it ended.

That said, any poll that gets several hundred votes on en:wp is likely significant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah. I somehow managed to only find out about the poll two days before it ended.</p>
<p>That said, any poll that gets several hundred votes on en:wp is likely significant.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Walling</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/comment-page-1/#comment-304203</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Walling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/#comment-304203</guid>
		<description>Good post. I think it&#039;s great that you point out Brion&#039;s role in all this, I&#039;ve always been impressed with his attitude and execution to the the project and the software. One important point I&#039;d add:

Feel free to call me out on this if it sounds like a way out-there conspiracy theory, but no one seems to have noticed that on the day after The Washington Post published a piece railing against us for our treatment of political figures (based on the exact same kind of vandalism we&#039;ve experienced for years, nothing new there), they launch a wiki project of their own (WhoRunsGov) about the very same topic. 

Looks like yellow journalism from where I&#039;m standing, and frankly I&#039;m surprised that Jimbo would be so reactionary. He&#039;s weathered the storm of much worse criticism before...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post. I think it&#8217;s great that you point out Brion&#8217;s role in all this, I&#8217;ve always been impressed with his attitude and execution to the the project and the software. One important point I&#8217;d add:</p>
<p>Feel free to call me out on this if it sounds like a way out-there conspiracy theory, but no one seems to have noticed that on the day after The Washington Post published a piece railing against us for our treatment of political figures (based on the exact same kind of vandalism we&#8217;ve experienced for years, nothing new there), they launch a wiki project of their own (WhoRunsGov) about the very same topic. </p>
<p>Looks like yellow journalism from where I&#8217;m standing, and frankly I&#8217;m surprised that Jimbo would be so reactionary. He&#8217;s weathered the storm of much worse criticism before&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sage (User:Ragesoss)</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/comment-page-1/#comment-304155</link>
		<dc:creator>Sage (User:Ragesoss)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 18:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2009/01/24/english-wikipedia-ready-for-flagged-revisions/#comment-304155</guid>
		<description>Andrew, the poll had also been listed at the Community Portal for pretty much the whole time it was running.  It sort of points to the limits of the extremely fragmented lines of communications on so complex a wiki as English Wikipedia.  But we do have the technical capability to make publicity a little more uniform, which might be a good step at this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, the poll had also been listed at the Community Portal for pretty much the whole time it was running.  It sort of points to the limits of the extremely fragmented lines of communications on so complex a wiki as English Wikipedia.  But we do have the technical capability to make publicity a little more uniform, which might be a good step at this point.</p>
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