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	<title>Comments on: Howard French on Chinese Wikipedia</title>
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	<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/</link>
	<description>USC professor</description>
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		<title>By: The Peking Duck</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-5495</link>
		<dc:creator>The Peking Duck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 10:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/#comment-5495</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Send Howard French Back to Africa...&lt;/strong&gt;

I have found Howard W. French consistently disappointing when it comes to reporting China for the New York Times. In Wikipedia terms, he&#039;s not very NPOV. He paints the Mao Zedong Wiki article as a reflection of government censorship, when......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Send Howard French Back to Africa&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>I have found Howard W. French consistently disappointing when it comes to reporting China for the New York Times. In Wikipedia terms, he&#8217;s not very NPOV. He paints the Mao Zedong Wiki article as a reflection of government censorship, when&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mahathir_fan</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-5488</link>
		<dc:creator>mahathir_fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/#comment-5488</guid>
		<description>I can assure you OK, that if Mao actually ordered 50 million people to be executed with a bullet, the Chinese would not hesitate to label him a murderer on wikipedia.

The 50 million who died or so, did not die from executions. They died from hardship. Who in China was not suffering from hardship at that time? We in Malaysia had it better by the 1960s, but in the 1930s, we were probably just like the Chinese in mainland china. Diseases, bad hospitals, low pay, long working hours all led to many people dying, and the lives of thse people could have easily been saved by the rich and resourceful British Empire. Mao at least could defend that China was poor but the British Empire was rich! The most powerful nation in the world at that time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can assure you OK, that if Mao actually ordered 50 million people to be executed with a bullet, the Chinese would not hesitate to label him a murderer on wikipedia.</p>
<p>The 50 million who died or so, did not die from executions. They died from hardship. Who in China was not suffering from hardship at that time? We in Malaysia had it better by the 1960s, but in the 1930s, we were probably just like the Chinese in mainland china. Diseases, bad hospitals, low pay, long working hours all led to many people dying, and the lives of thse people could have easily been saved by the rich and resourceful British Empire. Mao at least could defend that China was poor but the British Empire was rich! The most powerful nation in the world at that time.</p>
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		<title>By: mahathir_fan</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-5487</link>
		<dc:creator>mahathir_fan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 09:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/#comment-5487</guid>
		<description>I wrote about this at length on Rebecca&#039;s blog.

Your conclusion is extremely narrowed minded. The basis of your conclusion is that you think that what you know about Mao is the correct version of history. What you have read about Mao is nothing but propaganda esp. if it is written in English.

Basically, the people who are making this complain is annoyed that the Chinese people are not acknowledging their version of history - that Mao killed 50 million people or something like that.

I took a look at the entry for the British Empire.

How come I do not see articles that were critical of the British Empire? Do you know that the British Empire killed my grandfather in Malaysia? They didn&#039;t build good hospitals so my grandfather didn&#039;t get good health care. The British Empire also did not provide us, Malaysians with social security payments. As a result, none of my uncles or aunts graduated from high school. All had to quit school to help the family. Did you know that during the time of British Empire, we were so hungry we literally tied our stomach with belt? I&#039;m sure many people died of hunger, as our lives were considered pretty good despite those hardship. There were many who were sent to work at mines, toiled day and night, infected by various diseases like malaria etc. etc.

So is it right for me to blame the British Empiire for our families&#039; hardship? 

I&#039;m sure many Chinese died during Mao because Mao didn&#039;t build good hospitals. I&#039;m sure many had hard lives and that deterioriated their health because Mao did not institute a social security system. And I&#039;m sure Mao is also at fault becasue he could have built the 3 gorges dam back in 1955 then there wouldn&#039;t be floods to destroy those crops.

However, the country at that time was incapable of those luxuries. The Nationalist government took all the coffers with them, leaving practically nothing for the Chinese people on mainland. 

In fact, when comparing the astrocities of Mao and the British Empire, the British Empire was more evil because as the largest empire in the world at that time, surely they could have build first class hospitals in Malaysia, surely they could have provided us, their colonial subjects with social security payments and free or affordable healthcare. If the British government treated Malaysians who were their colonial subjects as well as they treat their citizens, I could have lived to see my grandfather. 

So why do we not see critical articles written about the British Empire about this? Its the same reason for why Chinese people do not write about Mao that way. They just do not see how they can blame those deaths on Mao when there was never any intent to murder. 

Also, please take a look at those English sources on Mao. Many of them are written by people who have not even seen Mao in person. They basically went to the library, read a few books and put together a compilation. 

If Jon and Halliday&#039;s book can make it into wikipedia as a source then you know the article has been hijacked by propaganda. See:

http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/chinesehistory/pgp/changhalliday.htm

&quot;By stating that Mao Zedong was responsible for over 70 million Chinese deaths during peacetime, the first sentence of Chang and Hallidayï¿½s highly revisionist biography of the Great Helmsman sets the tune that is carried throughout the book with remarkable dedication.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote about this at length on Rebecca&#8217;s blog.</p>
<p>Your conclusion is extremely narrowed minded. The basis of your conclusion is that you think that what you know about Mao is the correct version of history. What you have read about Mao is nothing but propaganda esp. if it is written in English.</p>
<p>Basically, the people who are making this complain is annoyed that the Chinese people are not acknowledging their version of history &#8211; that Mao killed 50 million people or something like that.</p>
<p>I took a look at the entry for the British Empire.</p>
<p>How come I do not see articles that were critical of the British Empire? Do you know that the British Empire killed my grandfather in Malaysia? They didn&#8217;t build good hospitals so my grandfather didn&#8217;t get good health care. The British Empire also did not provide us, Malaysians with social security payments. As a result, none of my uncles or aunts graduated from high school. All had to quit school to help the family. Did you know that during the time of British Empire, we were so hungry we literally tied our stomach with belt? I&#8217;m sure many people died of hunger, as our lives were considered pretty good despite those hardship. There were many who were sent to work at mines, toiled day and night, infected by various diseases like malaria etc. etc.</p>
<p>So is it right for me to blame the British Empiire for our families&#8217; hardship? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure many Chinese died during Mao because Mao didn&#8217;t build good hospitals. I&#8217;m sure many had hard lives and that deterioriated their health because Mao did not institute a social security system. And I&#8217;m sure Mao is also at fault becasue he could have built the 3 gorges dam back in 1955 then there wouldn&#8217;t be floods to destroy those crops.</p>
<p>However, the country at that time was incapable of those luxuries. The Nationalist government took all the coffers with them, leaving practically nothing for the Chinese people on mainland. </p>
<p>In fact, when comparing the astrocities of Mao and the British Empire, the British Empire was more evil because as the largest empire in the world at that time, surely they could have build first class hospitals in Malaysia, surely they could have provided us, their colonial subjects with social security payments and free or affordable healthcare. If the British government treated Malaysians who were their colonial subjects as well as they treat their citizens, I could have lived to see my grandfather. </p>
<p>So why do we not see critical articles written about the British Empire about this? Its the same reason for why Chinese people do not write about Mao that way. They just do not see how they can blame those deaths on Mao when there was never any intent to murder. </p>
<p>Also, please take a look at those English sources on Mao. Many of them are written by people who have not even seen Mao in person. They basically went to the library, read a few books and put together a compilation. </p>
<p>If Jon and Halliday&#8217;s book can make it into wikipedia as a source then you know the article has been hijacked by propaganda. See:</p>
<p><a href="http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/chinesehistory/pgp/changhalliday.htm" rel="nofollow">http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/chinesehistory/pgp/changhalliday.htm</a></p>
<p>&#8220;By stating that Mao Zedong was responsible for over 70 million Chinese deaths during peacetime, the first sentence of Chang and Hallidayï¿½s highly revisionist biography of the Great Helmsman sets the tune that is carried throughout the book with remarkable dedication.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: doug</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-5484</link>
		<dc:creator>doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/#comment-5484</guid>
		<description>As a former student of Andrew&#039;s, I can say that this question, and the other questions Andrew asks, were asked often, but, predictably, they were not fully answered in any case that I can remember. 

As a western journalist who has noticeably rubbed my fellow Chinese colleagues the wrong way in certain discussions about press freedom, truth, ethics, etc., I wondered aloud a lot about what is considered the true China story. Often, I got something short of a direct answer to that question. Usually, it was a shade of the truth, and usually it was admitted that to write in China means to write halfway and to write towards allusion and not towards pinpointing a fact. There are just too many complications, too much scrutiny about what a journalist does and not enough ethics in the region. 

I will post something about this on my blog at CNET, because I think it&#039;s increasingly more relevant as Chinese bloggers swarm the digital space with their intelligent musings on their culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former student of Andrew&#8217;s, I can say that this question, and the other questions Andrew asks, were asked often, but, predictably, they were not fully answered in any case that I can remember. </p>
<p>As a western journalist who has noticeably rubbed my fellow Chinese colleagues the wrong way in certain discussions about press freedom, truth, ethics, etc., I wondered aloud a lot about what is considered the true China story. Often, I got something short of a direct answer to that question. Usually, it was a shade of the truth, and usually it was admitted that to write in China means to write halfway and to write towards allusion and not towards pinpointing a fact. There are just too many complications, too much scrutiny about what a journalist does and not enough ethics in the region. </p>
<p>I will post something about this on my blog at CNET, because I think it&#8217;s increasingly more relevant as Chinese bloggers swarm the digital space with their intelligent musings on their culture.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Wang</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-5470</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Wang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 04:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/#comment-5470</guid>
		<description>Howard French&#039;s article was dreadful since there was an important fact which he did not mention

http://twofish.wordpress.com/2006/11/30/note-on-new-york-times-article-about-wikipedia-slant/

It is true that the negative aspects of Mao&#039;s rule were deleted from the Chinese article on Mao.  However, what is also true (and you can see it if you go to the article itself) is that the positive aspects of Mao&#039;s rule were also deleted.  The result of this is that the Chinese article on Mao is not more or less favorable toward Mao than the English version.  There were two political compromises reached (I remember because I was involved).  English wikipedia choose to put both a positive and negative statement about Mao in the summary.  Chinese wikipedia choose to put neither.  I don&#039;t think it can be argued that the Chinese wikipedia compromise was &quot;worse&quot; or &quot;more untrue&quot; than the English wikipedia compromise.

There is an irony here that an article about selective editing to fit a political view leaves out an important fact....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard French&#8217;s article was dreadful since there was an important fact which he did not mention</p>
<p><a href="http://twofish.wordpress.com/2006/11/30/note-on-new-york-times-article-about-wikipedia-slant/" rel="nofollow">http://twofish.wordpress.com/2006/11/30/note-on-new-york-times-article-about-wikipedia-slant/</a></p>
<p>It is true that the negative aspects of Mao&#8217;s rule were deleted from the Chinese article on Mao.  However, what is also true (and you can see it if you go to the article itself) is that the positive aspects of Mao&#8217;s rule were also deleted.  The result of this is that the Chinese article on Mao is not more or less favorable toward Mao than the English version.  There were two political compromises reached (I remember because I was involved).  English wikipedia choose to put both a positive and negative statement about Mao in the summary.  Chinese wikipedia choose to put neither.  I don&#8217;t think it can be argued that the Chinese wikipedia compromise was &#8220;worse&#8221; or &#8220;more untrue&#8221; than the English wikipedia compromise.</p>
<p>There is an irony here that an article about selective editing to fit a political view leaves out an important fact&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-5455</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 01:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/#comment-5455</guid>
		<description>Kevin, no one that I know of. It would be interested to hear of any writings in this area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, no one that I know of. It would be interested to hear of any writings in this area.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin S.</title>
		<link>http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/comment-page-1/#comment-5448</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andrewlih.com/blog/2006/11/29/howard-french-on-chinese-wikipedia/#comment-5448</guid>
		<description>When you were teaching did any of your students ever take on this question for a dissertation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you were teaching did any of your students ever take on this question for a dissertation?</p>
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